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Talk Eddy to Me
By Scott Woods
Chuck Eddy's byline has appeared on hundreds (thousands?) of articles on pop music in the last 14 years, and he's written two of the best books on the subject: 1991's Stairway to Hell (reviews of 500 heavy metal albums, from Black Sabbath to the Osmonds), and his newly-released tome, The Accidental Evolution of Rock'n'Roll: A Misguided Tour Through Popular Music (Da Capo), which, if you care at all about the Velvet Underground and Tiffany, you should go out and purchase right away. I interviewed Chuck in April, and what follows is most of that conversation--Chuck likes to talk as much as he likes to write, so the interview required some paring down. As an additional feature, Phil Dellio has written an extensive critique of Chuck's writing--"not a review of Chuck's book," though it is that as well, sort of. This is followed by a back and forth between Phil and Chuck, which is "not a fight," though it is that as well, sort of. [Originally published in Popped in 1998.] Scott: What I want you to start with is I
want you to explain the difference between 'Chuck Eddy' and 'Charlie.'
Chuck: Boy... Okay, I think the thing is,
when I first started writing--by which I don't mean when I first started
writing about music, but when I first started writing period--I think I
started using 'Chuck Eddy' as my byline. My family--my mom and dad, my
brothers and sisters--when I was growing up called me Charlie for the most
part. Somewhere along the line I think I started referring to myself as
Chuck. My guess is maybe I was, I don't know, ten, eleven years old, or
whatever. By which I mean I probably started writing 'Chuck Eddy' let's say
on papers at school or whatever, or on homework assignments. But my family
still would call me Charlie. When I started writing for publication, on my
high school newspaper or whatever, I used Chuck Eddy as my byline. And
obviously I continued using that moniker or whatever when I started writing
about music later in college. And I think to a certain extent maybe Chuck
Eddy was a character I created or something. Obviously, Chuck Eddy is me,
and Charlie Eddy is me, but umm--I don't know, I've kind of explained to a
certain extent in the book and to a certain extent I think a couple of
times in Radio On how I think that there's differences
personality-wise. I'm a pretty shy and retiring person in a lot of ways
[laughs], and I think that maybe, you know, using the Chuck Eddy byline
gives me the opportunity not to be so shy and retiring to say the least.
But on the other hand, I think even in high school I was sort of like a shy
extrovert. I was the MC of our talent show in high school and so on. I
think there's a certain part of me that wants to perform and maybe that's
the Chuck Eddy part. [pause] I don't know...
Scott: Well, it's interesting that you just
called yourself a 'shy extrovert' in high school, because one of the
questions I had written down here--I was assuming in high school, judging
from your yearbook entries that you did in Why Music Sucks [WMS
#7, February 1996], I actually figured that you were probably pretty
popular in high school.
Chuck: No.
Scott: But a popular outcast, I would say.
Chuck: Actually, I started like an ad hoc
organization I think in my sophomore year in high school called 'Frump,'
which stood for the 'Fraternal Regime of Unpopular Male Persons.'
Scott: [laughs] Was that like
what's-her-name--Valerie Solanas? The 'S.C.U.M.' organization?
Chuck: Yeah, I gue--I don't know, I mean I
don't even know what... I think I recruited some people who I pretended
were my friends. I was pretty geeky. I was well known, and maybe I was
well-liked, but I don't think I perceived myself as being
well-liked. Like, I ran for student government president, I think junior
year, before senior year--I mentioned this toward the end of Stairway to
Hell--so people must've, to a certain extent, liked me. When they had, you
know, election senior year for class brain and class clown and cutest
couple and nicest hair, I didn't get any of those things. So I don't think
that I was really well known. I think I wanted to be,
and maybe to a certain extent among certain kids I was--there probably were
certain kids who looked up to me because of certain things I would do, but
I didn't perceive myself as being popular. And as a matter of fact, I went
back--Martina [Eddy] and I went back--it was sort of like a tenth-year
reunion--we didn't go to the actual reunion, but there was a picnic--this
would've been, like, in '88--and I don't think that many people remembered
me. So I don't think I was that popular.
Scott: You were writing for the high school
paper, right?
Chuck: I wrote for the high school paper
starting in my freshman year. The first article I did was about baseball
cards.
Scott: Was your writing kind of wild back
then?
Chuck: It was... I would do a lot of stuff,
say, in the April Fool's issue. I did a lot of satirical-type stuff. And
again, not music-related. I think I did one music-related article in high
school, and it had to do with, umm, some... There was criticism, I guess,
of how teenagers reacted at some metal show, maybe at the Silverdome--I
might be wrong, but there might've been a big Nugent/Aerosmith/Kiss show,
where there was a lot of, I don't know if there was violence or what. But I
think I wrote something to the effect that that didn't say much for our
generation of kids [laughs], that they would act like that, and I thought,
you know, that those kids really reflected badly. But the thing is, you
have to understand I probably didn't do it from a moral standpoint, I
probably did it from a standpoint of, somehow, subconsciously, this was an
unpopular opinion, and you know, I wanted to take it. I know I did an
editorial about why there shouldn't be a smoking area in the school,
because I said that smoking is against the law if you're a minor, and if
they're gonna have a smoking area they might as well have a drinking area
and a murdering area for kids who wanted, you know, to drink and murder on
school grounds, 'cause they're against the law too. I did a
point-counterpoint thing, and part of this ended up in a review in
Stairway to Hell; I did one on why it was a good idea to kill harp
seals, and I think there's a review of some stupid band called Riot in
Stairway to Hell, and that's like the oldest writing in there, it
actually came out of this editorial I had written. And umm, what's another
one? A Nazi bookstore was shut down in Skokie, Illinois, when I was in high
school, and I did like an ACLU type of thing. Remember, this was like an
85% Jewish high school.
Scott: Is that why there were references in
the Why Music Sucks yearbook entries to 'Herr' Eddy or whatever?
Chuck: Well, no--those were probably kids in
my German class, and I went to Germany in junior year. I think there might
have been references to me being anti-Semitic, though.
Scott: There were, yeah.
Chuck: Okay, the anti-Semitic thing was
just--I mean, those were jokes.
Scott: Yeah, they were very clearly jokes.
Chuck: And the thing you have to understand
about my high school is, the Jewish-Gentile split was a class
split: Gentiles in my high school were white trash. But I worked as a
busboy at a Jewish country club, and I caddied at a Jewish country club.
There was a lot of joking that went around. But, I mean, I was never
really anti-Semitic. Some of my best friends invited me over to
the Jewish community centre all the time, and I went swimming there and
stuff like that, you know what I mean? I mean, it was just something you
kidded each other about. I'm no more anti-Semitic than the Dictators or the
Ramones, who would joke about stuff like that, and you know, it's kind of
the way kids--it's one of the things kids joke about, you know
what I mean. And no, I did not...
Scott: And you can't do that--do you think
you can't do that as much in the adult world? Especially as a writer?
Chuck: You certainly couldn't do it in the
Village Voice. I think Creem you could, maybe. The thing
is, yeah, Howard Stern does it. And now it's like almost a cliché, you know
what I mean? Now it would almost be pointless to do it. And I don't believe
that Howard Stern is actually racist or anti-Semitic or anything like that.
Scott: [laughs] He's Jewish.
Chuck: He's Jewish, I guess he can't be
anti-Semitic, although I don't know, maybe he makes anti-Semitic jokes--I
don't listen to him much.
Scott: Well, he's probably anti-Howard
Stern.
Chuck: Right. But I mean, he has a
shtick--you know? And umm...
Scott: Some people say he's anti-black.
Chuck: I don't know if he is or not; I'm not
a fan or a non-fan. But the thing is, the sort of humour he does is maybe,
you know--I think I grew up in a place where liberal ideas were accepted as
gospel in a lot of cases, and I think I said things to rile people up, to
be funny--and people laughed! You know what I mean? And it wasn't--I don't
remember anyone ever being trulyoffended. I may have done
editorials that were just the opposite, too. But I think a lot of the
writing I did in high school--and you can figure, I mean if you wanna use
this to figure out how my mind has worked as a rock critic you can--I think
a lot of it was an exercise: okay, I'm gonna take an unpopular issue and
I'm gonna figure out how to defend it. And I don't think that necessarily
means that I didn't believe what I was writing, but I may have had to
convince myself of it.
Scott: And do you still do that now?
Chuck: I have no idea. Not consciously. I
don't say I want to like this record. In 1986 or '87 did I? I
don't know. When I first wrote about Debbie Gibson after I had been writing
about Die Kreuzen for a few years? Umm, umm--did I convince myself that I
wanted to like Debbie Gibson? I honestly can't remember. I think I liked
her; I think I thought the songs were catchy. But I think the thing is, I
think if you look at some of those first articles that I did along those
lines--I think there was a nerf-metal thing I did in the
Voice--there's a lot of hedging, where I'm kind of saying, "Well,
yeah, this is really cheesy stuff, but it's sort of okay, because blah blah
blah." So I wasn't, you know, I wasn't really accepting it at face value.
And I think that ten years down the line I'm probably more able or willing
or brainwashed into being able to do that--I don't know. But umm, I think I
convinced myself that I liked Die Kreuzen and Killdozer--give me a break!
You know--God! I mean, did I really like Killdozer?
Scott: [laughing] I don't know, did you?
Chuck: God, I hope not--but I did! you know?
I must've--why would I write such positive things about them if I didn't?
But it's hard for me to get--you know, I can't put myself back in that
position. I mean I did like them. I mean, did you ever--is it possible for
you to truly like something? Or is it, you know--do I really like
feta cheese on pizza? I don't know, I convinced myself I like it.
What does that even mean? What does it mean?
Scott: But your tastebuds will determine if
you actually like it or not.
Chuck: No--tastebuds are learned.
Scott: Do you think so, completely? I mean,
sure, you can acquire taste--but some things you just will instantly like
or dislike, and that's just an honest reaction.
Chuck: Yeah, I don't know--I mean, I don't
know enough about tastebuds. I don't have a sense of smell, so I seasoned
my food really strongly early on, which is one of the reasons I might've
ended up with an ulcer. And I convinced myself really early on that I
didn't like sweets. I still can't--I still gag at the sight of honey. I
think that that's probably a learned response, I don't know what it goes
back to.
Scott: So what do you think of the Ohio
Players' [Honey] album cover then?
Chuck: Umm, no I don't gag at that. I don't
own a copy of it, actually, but what I remember of it... actually, if it
was in person, I don't think I'd wanna--I don't know. [laughs] I don't
wanna get into that.
turn me loose: chuck finds his voice
Scott: You said it was Pazz & Jop [the
year-end Village Voice rock critics' poll] that turned you into a
rock critic.
Chuck: I think at University of Detroit--my
freshman year in college--there were maybe like four or five people who did
record reviews for the paper--I was not one of them, I did other stuff.
Scott: Like sports?
Chuck: I don't think I did sports for them,
I covered campus things or whatever--I think I did some features, and wrote
some satirical stuff. But they had
their own miniature Pazz & Jop poll among the five critics there, and so
they came up with a list of the best records from 1978, and they referred
to the Village Voice one, and I'd never heard of the Village
Voice before. And on their list it's kind of funny, because I think a
Styx album finished 20th or 12 th or something--I don't know [laughs]--I
don't really know what won. But I remember one guy voted for--I know his
name, Walter Turowsky--who ended up in some band that I reviewed later
called the K-Martians, maybe ten years later. Anyway, someone voted for the
Funkadelic record, One Nation Under a Groove--probably
Darkness On the Edge of Town might've won. Anyway, they referred
to the Village Voice poll, and I'd never heard of the Village
Voice, and I looked it up, and for some reason--I looked at it and I
was just fascinated. And remember, I was a math guy, right? I think I was
fascinated at the numbers. I would look at it and I'd be like... I had kind
of started to listen to some music in the dorm, like some new wave or
whatever--although the first half of my freshman year in college I thought
I was gonna like Yes and Jethro Tull, because that's what so many people in
the hallway liked--it wasn't until maybe halfway through my freshman year
in college that I started getting into Fabulous Poodles and Armed
Forces--Armed Forces probably came out in January--and
Tonic For the Troops and Manifesto and You're Never
Alone With a Schizophrenic.
Scott: Who's that again, Ian Hunter?
Chuck: Ian Hunter, right. Those were some of
the very first records I bought. And for some reason I was fascinated by
the list, by the idea of the poll, and I saw the Voice poll and I
think I was fascinated that there were groups on there that I'd never heard
of. Like Pere Ubu and Wire. And so I would see the records and I would buy
them--like Modern Dance and Pink Flag. I didn't really
have a concept of punk or anything. I think the thing is I read Robert
Christgau's essay and I think I really wanted to understand it. He
would refer to people like Pere Ubu or whatever--I didn't know who David
Johansen or Tom Verlaine were --and I think it was like a puzzle I wanted
to put together. And I think I started buying records, to a certain extent,
for that reason. And so, [Christgau's] essay, "The Triumph of the New
Wave," was probably a big influence on me starting to write about music
initially in the first place anyway. And a lot of my tastes early on--which
explains why I was so into Neil Young and George Clinton and Lou Reed... I
wasn't so into them, but I mean, Christgau loves those people, you know
what I mean? And it's always kind of dumbfounded me that people always
assume that I'm so [Lester] Bangs-influenced. Because Christgau was a
much bigger influence on me.
Scott: I can see Bangs, sort of, in the
style--in some ways.
Chuck: Well, I think I have, to a certain
extent, his energy. I think that I have...
Scott: You can be a provocateur.
Chuck: No, there are similarities. But I'm
not that influenced by him. I think later on I probably incorporated some
of that, after I read Psychotic Reactions. But the initial influence was
Christgau--more than anybody else. And he obviously was my first editor at
the Voice. So, I don't know if that tells the story or not.
Scott: Yep.
Chuck: First record I ever reviewed--bet you
don't know it.
Scott: No.
Chuck: Look Sharp. For a community
college paper over the summer, pre-sophomore year in college when I was
taking this shorthand class, because I wanted to learn shorthand for
reporting purposes. Then I went to Missouri and the first record I reviewed
there was the American version of The Clash.
Scott: So how did Look Sharp fare
in your review?
Chuck: I gave it a good review, I said--I
don't have a copy of it, unfortunately--but I said that [Jackson] would
probably be nominated for Best New Artist for the Grammys, or like, maybe
they would ignore him--I don't think I said he would be nominated, I said
that they would probably nominate people like Steve Forbert or--I don't
know what adjectives I used but--"stupid disco singers like Anita Ward"
[laughs] and ignore Joe Jackson; and he's starting this new music called
'spiv rock.' [laughs] I think I read that somewhere. And I said something
about how his music has been compared to Steely Dan and Steve Miller--I
think I read that in some review! And I think I said--I don't know.
Actually, I love that album--I like the first two Joe Jackson albums a
lot. And when I reviewed the Clash record I said that I liked new wave,
but I didn't like punk. And that most of the punk that I'd heard, like
Richard Hell and the Dead Boys--and I can't remember if I said the Sex
Pistols--I thought was just really noisy and abrasive, but I liked The
Clash because parts of it were sort of, like, r&b-oriented or
something. [laughs] What's bad is I think I ended up being really
embarrassed by those reviews, and I ended up getting rid of them, and of
course now I'm really really sorry that I did, I'll never see them again.
Scott: Phil [Dellio] told me once he saw
some of your earlier reviews and he was laughing because he said you kept
using the word 'anger' or something.
Chuck: [laughs] Maybe I did. I think the
funniest thing is, at the end of the '70s, the Maneater--which is
the weekly paper at Missouri--put out a special issue of the '70s, and they
had different people--like Gary Graff, who ended up writing for the
Detroit Free Press wrote a lot of stuff there; he graduated from
Missouri the same year I did. In fact, Sheryl Crow was supposedly at
Missouri the same time I was too.
Scott: Wow, she might have read your
reviews.
Chuck: Yeah, I think I was a big influence
on Sheryl Crow. What was I gonna say? Oh yeah, I reviewed the third Nick
Lowe album along with Lindsay Buckingham, I said they were 'pure pop.' But
they had different people do essays on different genres at the end of the
'70s, and they gave me the new wave essay, right, 'cause I was like the
token new wave guy. I talked about what I called 'old wave' music, which
was like the Stooges and David Bowie and Alice Cooper, and "great groups
from England, like Roxy Music and the Velvet Underground." [laughs] One of
the worst factual errors that I'd ever done, until the new book came out
and I said the Monkees are from England. [laughs] I've grown absolutely
none!
Scott: I was amazed when you told me that
that was an error--I did think it was a joke.
Chuck: Maybe it was a joke--it's
possible that I meant it as a joke, and I just can't remember what was
supposed to be so funny about it. It's weird, because I have it in there
twice.
Scott: Well, there's one reference where it
is funny, you list a bunch of British bands, and include the Monkees, who
are like a pale imitation of a British band, in some ways.
Chuck: See now I don't know whether to
correct it, because a couple people have told me that it's really funny.
Even if as a joke it completely falls flat.
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